A Dumb Comment (if my blog ever gets popular I think I have an idea for a new feature) appeared under my previous post about Theology as a discipline (hint; I think it's stupid), and I feel like I need to address a common error made even by atheists, which I believe represents a depth of philosophical thought everyone who is an atheist should have attained but very few actually do.
The error in hand is "You don't have any disproof of god" or "You have no evidence god doesn't exist", to which the cookie cutter response is "The burden of proof is on you!", however I have observed that atheists are often incapable of recognizing both that theists, by definition, do not comprehend what proof is or why it is needed (and, by extension, why 'disproof' does not apply to their beliefs), and that they themselves have not provided any information simply by stating "You're making the claim; you need to prove it" given that these people don't have any philosophical comprehension of what proof is and how it is used to characterize certain claims.
When addressing this question you have to think about the nature of things which do and do not exist. Allow me to talk to you like a stupid child for a moment, as I explain the nature of extant and non-extant things, even though I am aware that you're probably a stupid adult.
It goes like this:
"Things which exist interact with other things. This is the nature of existence. We can look at these interactions characteristic of the interacting agent and say 'This is proof of a thing". Similary we can look at another interaction and recognize that it is not characteristic of that thing and say 'This is disproof of that thing' in that particular instance.
Notice that both proof and disproof are characteristics of things that exist. If a thing can both be proven and disproven then we know it exists."
"Things which do not exist do not interact with other things. This is the nature of non-existence. We cannot look at any interactions by a thing that does not exist because it does not exist to interact in the first place. We have no interactions with which to say 'This is proof' and we have no interactions to say 'This is disproof'."
Notice that both lack of proof and lack of disproof are characteristics of things that do not exist. If a thing has no proof or disproof then we know that it does not exist*."
*Ahem*, now that the philosophy is out of the way, let's go back to the original person saying "You have no disproof of god". This should be sweet sweet music to the ears of an atheist, because there is no disproof then we have a thing for which there is no proof and there is no disproof. We have a thing possessing all the characteristics of something which does not exist.
Remember my first post, in which I spoke about how it's easy to tell a lie but massive philosophical revelations are required to see through it, including comprehending the nature of lies, truth, proof and how they relate to the physical universe? This is one of those revelations. I will leave it up to you to decide whether 'most' people told that a god exists would come to comprehend the nature of falsifiability on their own, and if not I prompt you to consider what percentage of them would, and does this account roughly for the percentage of religious people seen in your own society? I think it probably will.
*There is one slight proviso here; for the sake of philosophical simplicity we are assuming that all evidence is known, simply because it is a meaningless trick by religious apologists to say 'well it *could* be proven, ignoring the fact that they already believe it despite the fact it hasn't been.
Proof is only necessary for a belief that the believer considers empirically true. If a belief held is neither falsifiable nor verifiable given the evidence at hand, it is scientifically meaningless, but it still has meaning for the person in question, and as such may still be something worth believing. Simply noting the lack of evidence does nothing to refute this nonscientific claim. The key example of this is belief in God that is based on personal revelation. If a person experiences God telling them to go to church and to worship Him, why should that person choose to disbelieve in God? The evidence for His existence has been laid in front of him.
ReplyDeleteCould you tell me where the quoted "philosophy" is from? I'd like to read it.
Your proviso renders your argument a tautology. Given that there is no available evidence for God, and that all evidence available is identical to all evidence, then yes, it is proven that God does not exist. But this is not the case and therefore not relevant.
P.S. You needn't be abusive. I am neither dumb nor stupid.
ReplyDeleteCould you tell me where the quoted "philosophy" is from? I'd like to read it.
Karl Popper on falsifiability. However I can feel your retarded thought processes lining up to make an "argument from authority" fallacy.
Proof is only necessary for a belief that the believer considers empirically true. If a belief held is neither falsifiable nor verifiable given the evidence at hand, it is scientifically meaningless, but it still has meaning for the person in question, and as such may still be something worth believing.
As long as you don't imply it might exist, we don't have a problem.
Simply noting the lack of evidence does nothing to refute this nonscientific claim.
If "this nonscientific claim" is "god exists" then it is already refuted. If there's no evidence then any claim that it exists is made mistakenly.
The key example of this is belief in God that is based on personal revelation. If a person experiences God telling them to go to church and to worship Him, why should that person choose to disbelieve in God? The evidence for His existence has been laid in front of him.
No it hasn't. No evidence has been laid out in this example.
You needn't be abusive. I am neither dumb nor stupid.
Stupidity is relative. I can promise you that you're stupid relative to myself.
Karl Popper on falsifiability. However I can feel your retarded thought processes lining up to make an "argument from authority" fallacy.
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm a big fan of Karl Popper.
As long as you don't imply it might exist, we don't have a problem.
I'm implying that an empiricist approach cannot comment on it.
If "this nonscientific claim" is "god exists" then it is already refuted. If there's no evidence then any claim that it exists is made mistakenly.
Here we must differentiate between scientific evidence and nonscientific evidence. Personal revelation is evidence. It is not scientific. But to conclude that it is true is reasonable.
No it hasn't. No evidence has been laid out in this example.
Personal revelation is a kind of evidence, as I said above.
Stupidity is relative. I can promise you that you're stupid relative to myself.
Don't make promises you can't keep.
No, I'm a big fan of Karl Popper.
ReplyDeleteNot big enough to have any comprehension of falsifiability or use it in a grammatically correct way or even recognize it when you see it.
I'm implying that an empiricist approach cannot comment on it.
This is true. As long as you don't imply there's something else than can when there isn't we don't have a problem. That would be you going "My beliefs are the only one of its kind you can't reason against them they're just right" like a fucking idiot.
Here we must differentiate between scientific evidence and nonscientific evidence. Personal revelation is evidence. It is not scientific. But to conclude that it is true is reasonable.
No we don't have to. Personal revelation isn't evidence.
Personal revelation is a kind of evidence, as I said above.
You're an idiot if you can't see that "personal revelation" isn't a type of evidence. An absolute idiot.
Don't make promises you can't keep.
Comprehend simple philosophical concepts then. Everything you've said so far has been wrong.
You're an idiot if you can't see that "personal revelation" isn't a type of evidence. An absolute idiot.
ReplyDeleteAll evidence is personal revelation. When you look at evidence as ironclad as a reading on a thermometer, what you're actually experiencing is your personal experience of perceiving that thermometer. Now, you may class that as a different kind of experience than the experience of divinity, but making that distinction is a personal decision, not a foregone conclusion.
Not big enough to have any comprehension of falsifiability or use it in a grammatically correct way or even recognize it when you see it.
ReplyDeleteThe existence of God is nonfalsifiable. Therefore it is not a valid scientific question. A theory based on God's personally revealed existence may still be meaningful.
This is true. As long as you don't imply there's something else than can when there isn't we don't have a problem. That would be you going "My beliefs are the only one of its kind you can't reason against them they're just right" like a fucking idiot.
There could well be something else as long as it doesn't make a claim to empirical, observable, falsifiable truth. If you don't respect such a claim, you are within your rights to disregard it.
No we don't have to. Personal revelation isn't evidence.
You're an idiot if you can't see that "personal revelation" isn't a type of evidence. An absolute idiot.
Why isn't it a type of evidence? If we treat evidence as a means of justification, a man is more justified in believing in something that he has experienced than in believing in something he has not experienced. If a person experiences the existence of god, then he would be irrational to deny God's existence just as he would be irrational to deny his own hands' existence. You may find it unlikely, and would be justified in doing so, as your own experience clearly does not include the existence of God. He may be mistaken, but he is not unreasonable. He is simply acting in accordance with the evidence in front of him. Now, the believing man is philosophically in the wrong when he tries to persuade you to believe because he experienced God, because his evidence cannot justify your belief.
Holly said..."All evidence is personal revelation."
ReplyDeleteFor that to be true it would have to make something evident. It doesn't.
Think about the evidence for the electron structure of the atom 10 billion years after humanity has died out. What do you notice?
Good girl; it's still there. The evidence is completely intact, lacking only an intelligent thing to find it again.
So clearly all evidence is not personal revelation. You are not capable of distinguishing between what is evidence in the scientific sense and 'what people take as evidence', which is not necessarily evidence at all.
chathamh said..."The existence of God is nonfalsifiable."
Correct. Debate stops.
chathamh said (on personal revelation)..."Why isn't it a type of evidence? "
Because it doesn't make anything evident.
chathamh said..."If we treat evidence as a means of justification, a man is more justified in believing in something that he has experienced than in believing in something he has not experienced."
Thinking about schizophrenics would allow a smart person to reason past this fallacy.
chathamh..."If a person experiences the existence of god, then he would be irrational to deny God's existence just as he would be irrational to deny his own hands' existence."
Thinking about what would happen if one man experienced God A who asserts God B doesn't exist, and another man experiences God B who asserts God A doesn't exist would allow anyone with the mental development of a 7 year old to see past this fallacy.
chathamh..."Now, the believing man is philosophically in the wrong when he tries to persuade you to believe because he experienced God, because his evidence cannot justify your belief."
Idiot can't see that what is actually true determines how correct you are when you believe something, not how much evidence you think you have.